Family Wealth Dynamics and Corporate Culture
Guest: Whitney Kenter - Glowe Connective
Mark Wickersham (00:20):
All right, here we are. I've been excited for this conversation for a while. Whitney, thank you for taking some time to be on the podcast. If you could just do me a favor, if you could just kind of spend a couple minutes introducing yourself and introducing the firm that you founded there with the Globe Collective.
Whitney Kenter (00:39):
No problem. So I'm Whitney Kenter and I've spent the majority of my career in the wealth management space in family office land, as we call it. My focus the entire time was around an interest was around the human behaviors and the family dynamics, and that's why I wanted to create a firm that was as focused on that part of the work as the traditional family office work. And that was my prior Firm matter family office. And it was kind of during that time that as I was doing a lot with generational differences, doing a lot with family dynamics and trust in communication work, I realized that with millennials and Gen Zs making up now close to 70% of our workforce, we are going to have to adapt a lot of our business systems for a lot of reasons. And so I started Glow back in 2020 to basically help come in at the C-suite level. We call ourselves the Chief Synergy Officer, and we come in and we really help reconcile a lot of the things that are going on within the C-suite teams and in the broader organization and also help get clarity in the real strategy and the vision. So that's been a really fun last three years.
Mark Wickersham (01:54):
We certainly started at an interesting time, right in the middle of covid, right? I think there's going to be case studies and analysis of that timeframe for decades to come about how that's changed culture, corporate communication. And then you add on top of that, you have obviously the generational shift that's going on in the workforce and combine the two. It's certainly an interesting dynamic, but before we kind of dive too deep into that, I always loved it when I talk to entrepreneurs about their story. Certainly you founded your company during an interesting time. One is you had a really well established career right in the prime of your career, and you decided to make a move. But in retrospect, it probably wasn't as big of a move as it sounds given your work with the families. So could you just tell me a little bit more about that, the work that you did in the family wealth space and how that led to your current practice?
Whitney Kenter (03:02):
So when I started in this career, so I started at KPMG as an auditor for two weeks, and then I realized this is not going to work for me. I need something more peopley. I need to be around people. And so I went to my partner and I said, is there anything more peopley in this big accounting firm? And they ended up putting me in the personal financial planning group, which was only like 350 people across the firm. And we were really working with a lot of families on generational wealth, structuring it, a lot of people selling businesses. And so it was a real immersive platform for me to dive into from that perspective. But what was interesting, two or three years into it, and I had some great partner mentors that were bringing me along. I'd be sitting in a room with a CEO or business owner, and we'd be talking about their transactions and things and all of a sudden things would drift and they would look at me and ask me questions. So how do I not have this totally make my kids feel like they're entitled? Or what's the purpose of all this? How do I bring my wife into this? How do I, lots of more non-technical questions, I
Mark Wickersham (04:13):
Guess the meaning of the good life things.
Whitney Kenter (04:15):
Exactly. And a lot of them, especially the business owners who were selling were kind of like, you feel like for so many years you're driving towards this point and you think once it's all done, it's like, ah, I've arrived and I've reached the top of the mountain. And yet none of them really felt like it was it for them, the sale of the business or putting the money in their account or whatever, wasn't it? They still had bigger questions about themselves. And so it just got me curious. I'm like, first of all, why are all these people asking me these questions? Why wouldn't, who should they be asking these questions to? And that's where I really stumbled on the work of Jay Hughes and Charles Collier and Jim Grubman and all the founding fathers of this work. And I had the great opportunity to reach out, get to know them, and start really diving into their work.
(05:05):
And then it was a few years later that I became more aware of the shirt sleeve to shirt sleeves in three generations curse. And I think it was the University of Chicago who published a study finally that said, okay, here's why this curse persists. Here's the data that supports why this happens. And it was such a huge light bulb moment for me because when I read it, it was like, okay, basically 95% of the reason why these families fall apart within three generations had to do with trust, communication and preparation. And it just blew my mind. I thought...
Mark Wickersham (05:41):
It had nothing to do with asset allocation estate,
Whitney Kenter (05:42):
Nothing to do with any of the technical things that our entire industry was built on. So I tried pushing this agenda and the importance of this and three big bureaucracies basically, and no surprise, it was like, yeah, do whatever you want as long as you sell and keep your book of business and all that. And then I realized that really the only way to do it was to go out on my own. And at the time I was like, I don't know that I am a risk taker, which is ironic now. So I found a partner who was equally interested in creating this vision that I had, and that's kind of how matter was born. I mean, it was basically like, no, we need to create something in the family office world where we can encourage and support and constantly be thinking about the family dynamics the same as we're always thinking about the evolution of their estate plan and all those things.
(06:38):
So that work, I think, and also it took me down the road of really diving into generational differences because if we were going to find common ground between parents, kids, grandparents, grandkids, all those different things, I just was always searching for how do we make this? Do we make this a little easier, a little bit more palatable? Because I didn't feel like even the books, the books weren't teaching a lot of theories and things like that, which was really important for practitioners like myself. But it's really hard to translate that if you're just a family wanting to figure this out.
(07:15):
So I wanted to kind of translate that in a real way for people, and that's what we were doing.
Mark Wickersham (07:21):
Is that the matter? Is that what the matter and family office?
Whitney Kenter (07:24):
Yeah, so it was basically kind of the scientific matter, that core thing. That was what we were always focused on with the family, because we kept saying the money is one thing, but the money is actually a tool. What really matters to you. But what that core is is really the ethos of the family and the connectedness of the family. That's what people are always worried about, is they didn't want to alienate their kids. They didn't want to entitle their kids, they didn't want to. It was all the relationship things.
Mark Wickersham (07:56):
I mean, from the outside to the layman, it might seem like a first world problem or a high grade problem about how the ultra high net worth families and the struggles that they have with raising kids that are productive members of society because the wealth can distort things. But what have you seen in terms of family dynamics that have been helpful in that manner? What have you seen in terms of dynamics that have been a little bit more destructive?
Whitney Kenter (08:25):
So I think on the positive side of things, I always felt like my conversations with families, especially the first generation, it was always how do we level the playing field a little bit? Because from an adult child perspective in their, let's say twenties and early thirties or something, they've grown up in the shadow of a very successful, very powerful, very influential person. And that creates a dynamic no matter how close the relationship or how wonderful the people, it just creates an interesting dynamic. And so I always found that we kind of have to call out just the situations of the family and not put much emotion around it or try to put emotion around it. And I think that one, my families, one of the family members said to me, he said, what I want your help with is I don't want to be the head of the family anymore.
(09:27):
I just want to be part of the family. And so I want to kind of level that. And so I really appreciated that point of view because I think that when we could articulate that to the kids and then show them what we mean by that and show them over and over and over and over again, that that's really what we mean. It really did help eliminate some of that tension, some of that concern, some of that kind of stuff. So I think some of it was just how do you talk to them practically? First of all, you can't ignore the fact that they're in rarefied air, right? They live a different, I mean, you can't ignore that. You can't just pretend like they're an every person. But I think calling out in a supportive and gentle, shameful, nonjudgmental way, like, Hey, this is just the dynamic that we're playing with here, and so let's talk.
Mark Wickersham (10:18):
That's the elephant in the room. You have this power dynamic where you have this wealth creator.
Whitney Kenter (10:23):
Exactly. And I think too, talking through things about how things feel, I've had multiple families tell me, oh, Whitney, we're not a touchy family. Family. You're not going to be able to do anything with us. And it was like, well, it's not the point that we're just going to have big group hug and hug about kind of thing. That's not what I'm talking about. But there's lots of communication things. There's lots of things that we can be doing that are practical and all of that that reinforces the type of dynamic that they're trying to perpetuate. But we just kind of had to call stuff out and just be courageous enough to hold up that mirror to them in a way, basically. And then on the destructive side, I have said this story a few times. It was somebody who never chose to not become a client of mine because, well, when I tell you the story, you'll understand.
(11:16):
So I went to meet with this husband and wife and very successful entrepreneur, and we were talking about what we do and all that kind of stuff. And they're, oh, we definitely need that. We've got three grown kids. One of 'em is just getting ready to get married, middle daughter's getting married. We want to do a lot for her, this and that. And so they kind of told me enough about the difference siblings and the age differences and how they were currently supporting one and how they were supporting the other. And so we were talking about some of the practical things that they might want to consider. And so he called me after the meeting and he said, Hey, it's a perfect example. I want to run this by you to kind of test how you would coach me on this or whatever. And he said, I was just visiting my daughter. We decided to buy them a house for their wedding present. I said, awesome. How are you thinking about structuring that? How are you thinking about communicating that to the other siblings? He's like, I don't need to communicate it to the other siblings. They don't need to know.
(12:17):
And I said, I don't know about that. And he pushed back hard and he's like, I'm not going to. And I said, okay, well, I said, just think about the unintended consequences of not doing that, because he's like, well, they're never going to know how much we paid. They're never going to know that I bought it for them. And I said, I don't know. I mean, there's a thing called Google. You can kind of look up Zillow and see. And that's where it was. It was very, at the time, it didn't seem courageous. It was so common sense to me to say, huh, have you thought about this and thought about what the real estate taxes are on that and how are they going to afford that? And are you planning on paying for that? I just started asking questions out of curiosity, and it really rocked in.
Mark Wickersham (13:07):
Didn't go well, huh?
Whitney Kenter (13:09):
Yeah.
Mark Wickersham (13:09):
You brought up the three generations short sleeve. The short sleeve, which has held true for decades. The other one that we see in the industry, and maybe you can shed some light on how family offices can do that, but normally the transition from the wealth creator to founder to the next gen. Normally, most family offices don't survive if it's a single family office at 80%. They see, and again, this is more, I don't know if there's hard numbers on this, but it's up there. The majority don't. Family offices don't survive to the next generation multifamily offices as well. You see that next generation. Normally they're picking their own advisor and not staying with their parents' advisors. So why is that, and what can family offices do to help mitigate that?
Whitney Kenter (14:01):
I think the one thing that I've seen over and over is I think there were a lot of initiatives, I would say at the big banks that I worked with where they were like, you have to get to know that next generation. And I think that where it goes wrong is it's a check the box more transactional thing. Because if I'm the kid and you're reaching out to me, it's like, why does my parents' financial advisor want to meet with me? And I don't think there's enough thought given to, what's the answer to that question? It can't be, well, I don't want you to leave when your parents die. I mean, that's the honest answer of why they're doing it, but also to think that the children are not smart enough to figure that out. It creates this automatic, you're not here for me. You're here because...
Mark Wickersham (14:54):
Your defenses are up right away.
Whitney Kenter (14:55):
Totally. And so I think that what we tried to do was we were very intentional about the win, how the who, if I was perceived as the parents' advisor, probably wasn't going to be able to earn level of trust that needed to be had with the rising generation. And we knew that from an age differential, from personality and just from a perception standpoint, you're a mom and dad's person. And so I think there just needs to be more intentionality. And unfortunately, what that means, which will not please a lot of people, is it makes it less linear because you can't check the box on building relationships. You can't check the box on these types of things. And I think people need to really think about what is their intention? If their intention is to keep the business, you might as well not even do it. It needs to come from a deeper place. Why would you want to meet with them and develop a relationship outside of the business motives? Because if it comes from that true place, like, no, I'm just really curious, and oh my gosh, this person is getting access to their trust in two years and I don't want my first meeting with them to be awkward, great, go with that thread. Lean into those feelings because then it's more genuine and you can be more authentic with them and expand.
Mark Wickersham (16:20):
Yeah, there's a reason beyond just asset retention in terms of...
Whitney Kenter (16:25):
And especially because all the papers are writing about this huge generational transfer. And so I mean, these kids are not oblivious to what's happening. And so I think it's really just really pause and think about and be more thoughtful and be more intentional. Put yourself in the kids' shoes. Are you even the right person to meet?
Mark Wickersham (16:48):
You need a different team. Maybe somebody that...
Whitney Kenter (16:49):
Yeah, maybe that's a better way to think about it.
Mark Wickersham (16:53):
Different generation of advisor as well. Right.
Whitney Kenter (16:55):
Definitely. It's for sure harder.
Mark Wickersham (16:58):
Let's shift gears a little bit and go talk more broadly about maybe some of the corporate or organizational work that you do. I think one of the sayings out there that I'd love to get your take on it is the culture eats strategy for lunch. So what's your take on that?
Whitney Kenter (17:19):
Mine is culture is everything.
(17:22):
And I think that the way that we're talking about it with people that's resonating is if you think about it, if your internal organization and the people within it are reflective of how you want to be perceived externally, then you've really got something because you're not working so hard on culture. I think that's where there's a big miss. It's like as within. So if you are thinking about all, we spend a lot of time thinking about how do we want our clients to feel? How do we want to deliver? How do we want to deliver? If you just took that and turned it inside, then you would have a much would
Mark Wickersham (18:02):
Say, how do you want your employees to feel that,
Whitney Kenter (18:05):
And how do you treat them and how do you communicate with them? All the things that we spend so much energy thinking about externally, if we could turn it internally and say, because I think what happens is there's a huge mismatch. We spend so much energy focusing externally that the internal stuff, the culture work and all of that is way down here. It's not really thought about until there's a problem. And then people are calling me, they're like, I hear you're the culture person. I think we need to talk
Mark Wickersham (18:34):
Culture guru, come quick. So is this the thought that if you treat your employees great, that your employees will treat your customers great? Is that,
Whitney Kenter (18:43):
Yeah. I mean, for the most part, I think it's similar to the other conversation though, that I think that the employees are smart enough to know when it's real and when it's not. And I think that every single company that we go into, they all have a vision, they have values and all that kind of stuff. And we've had a number of people be very proud that their values are super strong. And I think in many cases, most people don't have a clue what the values even are. It's not permeated through the organization. They don't even know, or a lot of people will tell us, yeah, I mean, I know we want to be that way, but we're not right now. And so there's often a disconnect between that. And it's kind of where I do feel like for the last several decades, culture's been one of those things that all the business books talk about as being so important and everything. And they talk about you need to have a vision, you need to have a value statement, you need to have all these things. And so people check the box, they hire consultants, got the
Mark Wickersham (19:48):
Foosball table, got pizzas on Friday.
Whitney Kenter (19:50):
Totally. Exactly. And I am like, that's not culture. How your people interact, how your people communicate, how many meetings after the meetings go on. I mean, there's lots of ways to think about it, but it's also the hardest, and it's not something that typically shows up on a scorecard, right? Because we're all focused on revenue, profitability, shareholder value, whatever the main things are. But I would say there's plenty of data that supports those with the strongest cultures have the best results.
Mark Wickersham (20:24):
So I've heard that recent discussion about culture is just, it's down to, it's not an organizational thing, it's a boss thing. Do you agree with that? I know your work satisfaction, a big majority of it is dependent upon whether your boss is a person or not.
Whitney Kenter (20:44):
Right? Exactly. I do think that people work for people. I do think it's important because, and especially with the millennials and Gen Zs, they want to know that whatever their work is is that it matters. And they want to have a strong gravitational pull towards what the company does. And so I think that's really important. But it is the people, I mean, at the end of the day, those who they have to report to and or be mentored by or not, that's the strongest representative of the company. And so I think that's where in the organizational structure, there's a lot of people who get promoted to positions where they have people reporting to them. And I've had, I can't even tell you how many people tell me, I wish I could just do my job and not have to deal with the people. It's really sad, and I understand.
(21:42):
I understand where they're coming from, yet it's a huge part of their job. But I also now realize that they're not so really supported in that part of their job. They rose through the ranks because their skills in selling or marketing or whatever it was, whatever. And now all of a sudden they're like, oh, now we want you to be a really inspirational and great mentor and people person. And I think those are two different skill sets that haven't been cultivated as much as the other one. So I mean, I get it. It's just really hard.
Mark Wickersham (22:19):
Let's talk about some of the generational differences in terms of work expectations from millennials and Gen Z. I think certainly one of them is that obviously they want to have work that has meaning and purpose. I'd probably say older generations did too. My generation did too. You just put up with it when you didn't have it, and you knew that eventually you hopefully got there. But it seems like this generation is a little bit more forward in that. But how do you see the generational differences in the workforce and what their expectations of work are?
Whitney Kenter (22:53):
Well, I think that the main one is they view life as one thing, not as bifurcated things. And I think that's really hard, and I'm sure that a lot of it has to do with the, it's likely that their parents weren't able to show up to the games and do that kind of stuff because they were working. And so I think that our kids are smart. They observe things, they feel things. They've experienced things, and they're saying, I want to make sure I'm at the games. I want to make sure I'm doing this. And so there's just different perspectives about what life is and what a fulfilling life is. And I think that they're bringing to the table a challenge for us to think about that as far as what actually needs to get done in this business and in their role, and what am I willing to pay for that, and what does that mean? How am I going to know that they're successful? We owe them that clarity. And I think that we as leaders in older generations, no one's really questioned it. Nope, you're a staff accountant. This is what you do. This is how many hours you need to bill. It was very rote.
Mark Wickersham (24:11):
You're working on Saturdays during tax season and this how it works.
Whitney Kenter (24:15):
And no one really questioned it because it was just the expectation. And now I think there's just people questioning, well, if I had to do that, I don't know that I would want to do that. And it's not that they don't want to work hard. That's definitely, I think one of the biggest misconceptions. I do think that they want more clarity on what that means. I think they need that clarity. And I was talking to somebody the other day, and it kind of occurred to me, I thought, wow, as our school systems have become more driven by numbers, kind of putting kids in boxes, this person needs to be an AP because of this person. So we've been kind of putting structure into these kids earlier and earlier and earlier. You have to be on the lacrosse team at age seven, otherwise you're never going to make varsity. So we've been kind of creating all this structure where they haven't really had to think outside of the structure very much. And so I think it's just like, oh, heads down, I'm going to do the thing. I'm going to do the thing. When I hear bosses say, well, I'm not sure that they can think creatively. I don't know that they know how to pivot or problem solve very well. They just know how to do. It's like, well, this is kind of what we've been training 'em for.
Mark Wickersham (25:37):
Yeah, this is the educational system that we put...
Whitney Kenter (25:39):
It's not impossible for sure, because everyone has that ability. Not everyone, most people have the ability to tap into that skill, but it needs, it's kind of like its own set of training. You have to explain to them. And I think also they have not encouraged them to fail, if you think about it, because we want them to all have a pluses. My daughter said to me the other day, she's like, I'm failing at school. I said, what are you talking about? And she's like, well, I'm not getting a pluses in every class like everyone else. And if that's the standard, really that's not life. I'm not as good
Mark Wickersham (26:18):
As they experienced adversity because their parents shield them from it. As a soccer coach, a youth soccer coach for a long time, I think one of the best things about youth sports is that kids can experience adversity and failure without tragedy. You lose a game, it sucks. You go get an ice cream,
Whitney Kenter (26:38):
Right? Right, exactly. You go for the next game.
Mark Wickersham (26:42):
I think you learn from your failures more so than your success.
Whitney Kenter (26:46):
Right? Exactly. And I think, I mean, it's kind of the same in business. We don't want people to fail. We got to hit those results. We've got to do the thing. So there's so much rigidity, and I think that's where, for me, in thinking about starting low and everything else, it's like, man, the systems just need to change. We have to create, I mean, everyone was talking about right around 2020, I was talking to a lot of leaders and they said, we need to teach agility. We need to have my leadership team be more agile. And I just was stunned by that. I mean, I understand why, because they felt like they got caught flatfooted on a lot of... and whatever. But it's not something that you come in and top down and say, now you will all be agile. You will read the book on agility and you will figure it out.
Mark Wickersham (27:34):
Got to go through Navy SEAL training...
Whitney Kenter (27:36):
Right, exactly. I mean, why are we not thinking about some of these things? And so it feels a little bit like, we just need to breathe a little bit. We need to think about what's really happening and have more compassion. I think especially with the generational differences, I keep talking to so many people about it and saying, yes, and what else could be true? This is how you're feeling about this situation. This is what they've said, but what else could they mean by that? Or have you explored that more with them and things like that. I just think that we're so quick to say this is that generation, this,
Mark Wickersham (28:13):
Yeah, right. Mean that's been going on for generations too.
Whitney Kenter (28:17):
Has been going on forever. It's been going on forever.
Mark Wickersham (28:21):
Well, I'll tell you one thing. The generation that is adapted to adversity is going to be the ones that were in high school and college. When covid hit and your total lives were upended, or you just started your job and you went completely remote. I mean, that generation has, they've survived it. So
Whitney Kenter (28:43):
Yeah, exactly.
Mark Wickersham (28:44):
They get credit for that. So just shifting gears now that just a little bit more on a personal note, we've obviously had a chance to chat and we both had a chance to go to see a show at Red Rock. So just on a personal note, what has been your favorite rock concert? What has been your best concert moment for you?
Whitney Kenter (29:05):
So I will confess, I've only been to a concert at Red Rocks once, but because I've done yoga at Red Rocks a lot, but not so many concerts. The thing that I love about Red Rocks outside of the nature and the beauty and all of that kind of stuff, I think what I experienced at the concert I went to was there was an immersion into the music that I felt like was really different than in other concert venues. And I think that it was, I don't know, it was kind of like the music just was all consuming as opposed to me just listening with my ears. I felt like it was kind of a full body experience, which was pretty
Mark Wickersham (29:49):
Cool. Yeah, I was got a similar experience I saw at a Noah K at Red Rocks. I think one of the things was write venue, write artist, write time for that. I think some of the things about Red Rocks is that not only is everybody excited to be there, the artist is excited to be there, so it kind of creates this communal kind of electricity. Meanwhile, the venue itself is absolutely stunning and the sound is amazing. I don't know if I can go to another concert again. I think I might be ruins, but
Whitney Kenter (30:23):
I know that's what I said. I was like, wow, it took me this long to get here. And now that I've been to one, why would I want to go to any other venue?
Mark Wickersham (30:32):
So people aren't listening. This podcast, I don't know if people get to the end of it, but check out. They always have an eclectic line up. It needs to be on everybody's bucket list to get out there. All right, Whitney, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your insights. It's been a really thoughtful discussion and I appreciate you sharing.
Whitney Kenter (30:52):
Yeah, really fun. Thanks for having me on. I had a great time.
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